4x4's to the rescue!

Don't need 4x4 - USE WINTER TYRES !!!!!!!

Why no one in this country inform people about winter tyres?!
There should be big campaign about it in TV, radio and internet instead of a panic that we are running out of grit!
Winter tyres hugely improve driving not only in snow but also sleet and cold, rainy conditions. They are legal requirement in many European countries.
They have got different tread pattern and are made of rubber that ramain elastic in cold temperature.
A normal car with set of winter tyres is much better for snowy roads than 4x4 with summer/all season tyres.

By miki123 on 8 January, 2010, 1:40pm

+1 for winter tyres

Winter tyres are designed for various forms of inclement weather not just snow. Summer tyres stop operating efficiently when the temperature drops below 8ºC. Winter tyres have a tread not only designed to grip in snow but also dissipate water on sodden roads where normal summer tyres would start to aquaplane.

Mikl123 I'm totally with you.

By W00DZ on 8 January, 2010, 9:13pm

Good - but no cigar

Yes I agree winter tyres do make sense, but do not kid yourselves. A two wheel drive car with winter tyres is no match for a 4x4 in six inches of snow. The two wheel drive car stops. I know, I've got one fitted with m+s tyres and 4x4 were in a different class. Perhaps Gordon can now put another tax on 4x4's , they could call it 'snow ability tax'.?

By builder on 8 January, 2010, 9:44pm

A good car to get for around the £10k mark is a Daihatsu Terios or Suzuki Jimny.
But get a Skoda Octavia 4x4, extra ground clearance and half the price of the Audi Allroad and Volvo Crosscountry. Just as good.
No point getting winter tyres. 2 wheeled drive is no match for a 4x4.
If you want to go cheap, get a Fiat Panda 4x4, great little car, especially for this weather

By lucasworld on 8 January, 2010, 11:46pm

I spent 10 winters in the ski areas of Austria with only front wheel drive cars with winter tyres.
I used snow chains only once when my car was under 4 ft of snow and then only for about 20 meters to get back onto the road.
Everyone should use winter tyres as the differance is unbelievable and would save almost 90% of snow related accidents.
So sorry Lucasworld although a 4x4 is wonderful and I now own one, winter tyres do work and work well.

By Dave20 on 9 January, 2010, 11:02am

Winter tyres vs M+S and All season tyres

Fully agree with the comments re; Winter tyres, they are made with a more flexible rubber compound for better grip. This is not the case with M+S tyres so Winter tyres are recommended.
The only all season tyre that I have found that is up to the job of cold weather, snow and ice and meets German standards for this is Good Year Vector 4 Season tyres. I shall be fitting them next autumn

By Peteant on 9 January, 2010, 6:10pm

Winter tyres are the answer!

Yes as people are saying winter tyres make the difference. A 4x4 on summer tyres offers no extra traction when you brake!

Even with a RWD car I have had no problems in deep snow and the grip when cornering/ braking is amazing. How adout Auto Express running an article on their benefits?

By fraserd01 on 9 January, 2010, 6:22pm

4X4

O how i gloated.
A doctor neighbour has made it perfectly clear over the years at his disgust that i have run 4X4s.
Knock on the door a few day's ago, 'hello mr doctor', 'hello mr nicholson', 'sorry to bother you but could i impose on you to tow me out of the snow with your Range Rover'. 'no problem mr doctor, lets go'. 'mr doctor, when you bought your new audi recently did you not consider a quattro'
blank face.
I will keep my R/R and when it's due for changing i WILL buy another, and another.
My wife loves the small bunch of flowers from the doctor.

By bobsnicholson on 11 January, 2010, 6:52am

4x4 v Winter Tyres

Having lived in Estonia for a decade and a half I believe that I have a reasonable understanding of the challenges faced in keeping going on the roads in winter weather. The law here requires all drivers to fit winter tyres between December 1st and March 31st but many will make the switch in October when the first signs of frost appear overnight.

If you live in an area prone to frost and snow it only makes sense to change tyres for the winter and this is as valid for the UK as it is for any other country. By the way some in the media carry on you would think winter comes as a big surprise but I can assure everyone that all calendars I have seen come with a December and a January so no conspiracy there!

I have driven FWD with studded tyres, FWD with regular winter tyres, 4WD with all-terrain tyres and 4WD with M+S tyres and I can say that any of these is far superior to running 2WD with standard issue tyres. There are a lot of 4x4s on the road in this part of the world but that does not mean that 2WD drivers are second class citizens. The most important aspect is to be certain that you have the correct rubber fitted and plenty of it — no point to have winter tyres if they have no appreciable tread!

This winter I am FWD with studs which of course are not permitted in the UK but last winter I was FWD without studs and I had no particular problems except for one morning when there had been a 60cm overnight snowfall which caught everyone on the hop for a couple of hours until the roads were cleared. I was still able to ferry my kids to school. It just took a little longer than normal.

Here in Tallinn it hasn't been above zero for over a month and this morning started at -20 but has now risen to a balmy -15! The main problems on the roads here are battery related as drivers will always have the correct tyres but a battery just does not like the cold and an old one can deteriorate very quickly in a period of prolonged chill.

I would say that a 4x4 is the best answer on balance to keep going in the ice and snow but the flip side is that some 4x4 drivers think that they are untouchable in winter weather and end up taking unreasonable risks which see them just as badly stuck as any other driver! So whatever you drive just take it carefully and sensibly.

By plawrence1 on 11 January, 2010, 8:46am

Funny how there are very few winter tyres available in the UK...Just when you need them!
I work for a prestige car dealership, solely in charge of selling and replacing tyres, and over last month or so, had numerous enquiries for winter tyres. All the major manufacturers don't have any stocks of our main sizes (205/55/16, 225/45/17, 245/40/17 etc etc) so I can't help anyone..despite the dealership promoting winter tyres!! DOH! No anticipated delivery dates, no stocks, and I have been told that the UK is a important market for winter tyres.. Hmmmm!
Well, my ratty old Vauxhall Astra, with cheapo Tigar tyres made it over some of the worst roads in my area (Havant, Waterlooville to Chichester) and I saw plenty of 4x4's getting into trouble on their summer tyres on fancy 18" and 19" rims.. I personally think that some better education is required for winter driving, a lot of current 4x4's may be great day to day, but low profile summer tyres on big wheels isn't a lot of cop in the current weather.

By tombstone on 11 January, 2010, 9:06am

4x4 v Winter Tyres

Having lived in Estonia for a decade and a half I believe that I have a reasonable understanding of the challenges faced in keeping going on the roads in winter weather. The law here requires all drivers to fit winter tyres between December 1st and March 31st but many will make the switch in October when the first signs of frost appear overnight.

If you live in an area prone to frost and snow it only makes sense to change tyres for the winter and this is as valid for the UK as it is for any other country. By the way some in the media carry on you would think winter comes as a big surprise but I can assure everyone that all calendars I have seen come with a December and a January so no conspiracy there!

I have driven FWD with studded tyres, FWD with regular winter tyres, 4WD with all-terrain tyres and 4WD with M+S tyres and I can say that any of these is far superior to running 2WD with standard issue tyres. There are a lot of 4x4s on the road in this part of the world but that does not mean that 2WD drivers are second class citizens. The most important aspect is to be certain that you have the correct rubber fitted and plenty of it — no point to have winter tyres if they have no appreciable tread!

This winter I am FWD with studs which of course are not permitted in the UK but last winter I was FWD without studs and I had no particular problems except for one morning when there had been a 60cm overnight snowfall which caught everyone on the hop for a couple of hours until the roads were cleared. I was still able to ferry my kids to school. It just took a little longer than normal.

Here in Tallinn it hasn't been above zero for over a month and this morning started at -20 but has now risen to a balmy -15! The main problems on the roads here are battery related as drivers will always have the correct tyres but a battery just does not like the cold and an old one can deteriorate very quickly in a period of prolonged chill.

I would say that a 4x4 is the best answer on balance to keep going in the ice and snow but the flip side is that some 4x4 drivers think that they are untouchable in winter weather and end up taking unreasonable risks which see them just as badly stuck as any other driver! So whatever you drive just take it carefully and sensibly.

By plawrence1 on 11 January, 2010, 9:37am

4X4's and winter tyres

Driving in bad weather is down to the driver rather than the technology. If you are not happy in driving in snow, don't go out in it! Most accidents occur due to bad drivers. Keep up your momentum for hills, revs and speed low, take corners and descending gradients at very low speeds (so if you did slide you won't be going far). Keep off the breaks as much as possible and only use them very gently to slow the vehicle if you have to. 90% of the drivers will be fine. It can be hard at times to judge how much momentum you will need but keep thinking and reading the road condition.

Over recent years there have been increases in SUVs that think they're unstoppable. As a result, these have struggled as much as anyone else if not cause more accidents.

I have a 'softroader' (mainly for it's very good fuel economy and space) and on the lead-up to the first winter with it, I put some All-Terrain tyres that are M+S rated. The vehicle is now very capable in these conditions when driven sensibly. There was very little choice in all-season tyres for this vehicle at the time but it has been worth doing the research. A 4x4 with good tyres are far superior in bad snow as long as they are driven correctly!!!

I follow what I preach and have had no problems over the last 15years driving in all types or vehicle

Think, read the roads and drive carefully everyone. Don’t forget to start hating us 4x4 owners after the snow has gone!

By andyhomer1 on 11 January, 2010, 9:47am

@tombstone

Yes, I agree that better education is required. Drivers need to be taught how to drive in all conditions and I'm sure a mock winter skidpan would not be beyond the realms of possibility. Today's technologically advanced cars can also be too smart for the weather with ABS and traction control being fooled by snow and ice on many occasions.

Sitting in my lounge in Tallinn I watch BBC or Sky News every morning and my wife openly mocks the driving techniques of the cars passing the camera. I have to remind her that most of the cars that we see are running on the wrong rubber but the fundamentals for driving in snow are a) keep up a good head of steam and b) greatly lengthen your anticipation distances. By the first I mean that pussyfooting around at 10mph will see you stuck in the first lump of snow you encounter or lose traction on the first patch of ice. It may take a bit of nerve sometimes to drive a little faster on snow and ice than you might believe is prudent but if the rubber on the tyres is the correct compound you will survive and so will others. By the second I mean that you need to look at every other car on the road as a potential accident and avoid accordingly.

Other small tips to keeping going are to learn to use the forward and reverse gears to rock a car into motion if it becomes stuck and also keep a bag of kitty litter and a plastic shovel in your boot with which to apply traction to slipping tyres. All very simple stuff but easily forgotten. Blankets, drinks, snacks and similar just in case are simple common-sense.

By plawrence1 on 11 January, 2010, 9:53am

tires and common sense

Plawrence1 has summed it up well.

By fredd on 11 January, 2010, 10:00am

ABS

interesting and sensible stuff from tombstone and plawrence1. we have had plenty of snow here in France. I was creeping down my icy lane yesterday morning in my Tiguan with "offroad" engaged. I gently touched the brakes and mr ABS took over. I was powerless to intervene and had to continue at a blind junction. fortunately no one else was around. I also have a 20 year-old RR (the battery had gone flat). Much prefer it in bad weather, especially with difflock engaged. Pulled some people out of a ditch last year when I could not stand up on the icy road. Had to ask the others to attach the tow rope. The wheels did not spin at all. V impressed.

By fredd on 11 January, 2010, 10:11am

ABS

interesting and sensible stuff from tombstone and plawrence1. we have had plenty of snow here in France. I was creeping down my icy lane yesterday morning in my Tiguan with "offroad" engaged. I gently touched the brakes and mr ABS took over. I was powerless to intervene and had to continue at a blind junction. fortunately no one else was around. I also have a 20 year-old RR (the battery had gone flat). Much prefer it in bad weather, especially with difflock engaged. Pulled some people out of a ditch last year when I could not stand up on the icy road. Had to ask the others to attach the tow rope. The wheels did not spin at all. V impressed.

By fredd on 11 January, 2010, 10:13am

4 X 4 SALES

I am currently the owner of a rear wheel drive company car which has just left us stranded, having eventually got the Octavia out and running I will now be replacing the company car with a 4 wheel drive one!

By dboi75 on 11 January, 2010, 11:29am

ABS

interesting and sensible stuff from tombstone and plawrence1. we have had plenty of snow here in France. I was creeping down my icy lane yesterday morning in my Tiguan with "offroad" engaged. I gently touched the brakes and mr ABS took over. I was powerless to intervene and had to continue at a blind junction. fortunately no one else was around. I also have a 20 year-old RR (the battery had gone flat). Much prefer it in bad weather, especially with difflock engaged. Pulled some people out of a ditch last year when I could not stand up on the icy road. Had to ask the others to attach the tow rope. The wheels did not spin at all. V impressed.

By fredd on 11 January, 2010, 11:52am

Not going anywhere

"The picture shows a member of the The Bux and Oxon 4x4 Response Group helping pull an ambulance free that has managed to get stuck in the snow."
Well done to the The Bux and Oxon 4x4 Response Group, but...
Actually, the picture shows the Ambulance with at least one back door open, no one visible in the ambulance, and a front seat passenger in the 4x4 with no one at the wheel, and a slack tow rope. At least, from what I can see.
However, I think this is great. A huge raspberry blown at the anti 4x4 brigade and the greenies. Where would many people in the many untreated areas of this country be without them. No thanks to the Gord (Mr Brown) and his followers -and detractors (no, not de Tractors).
Of course, on Ice, they're as bad as any other wheeled vehicle without chains or studs.

By bob809 on 11 January, 2010, 12:57pm

True Bob809

I know I've bleated on above about winter tyres but that doesn't make me part of the anti-4x4 brigade. The 90% of people driving in the UK a set of winter tyres will do the trick even with 2WD. However I still believe there is a market for that 10% who require either a 4x4 with all-road capabilities or a real off-roader. For these drivers I absolutely agree 4x4s + correct tyres are essential.

By W00DZ on 11 January, 2010, 8:01pm

For dboi75

You'll often find most company schemes do not permit 4x4's but if you are able to run one; buy a LR as everything else is inferior. I admit to smiling the other day when I saw a LR Defender pulling a BMW X5 out of a ditch. THe best 4 x 4 x far is so true!

By Focus_your_mind on 12 January, 2010, 11:41am

Ode to the 4WD

Saw this today, and it made me smile....

--------------------------------
You all poked fun
You had your laughs
You quoted fuel consumption graphs

The papers ensured
We all were mocked
With vitriol that left us shocked

You scratched our cars
You hurled abuse
With swearing sometimes quite profuse

You cut us up
You pushed us out
Two fingers and an angry shout

Such hatred
Never felt before
Until I drove a Four-by-Four

But suddenly you’re not so snide
“Can little Johnny have a ride?”

“My car is stuck”
“My wheels just spin”
“OMG, we’re all snowed in”

To school, to work
Without a fuss
I’m suddenly the minibus

The neighbour’s friend.
(Although you sniffed,
You nonetheless took up the lift)

The snow will go
The ice will melt
But will the gratitude be felt?

When weather is no more a factor
Remember your friend
The Chelsea Tractor.


Anon

By SnowyMum on 13 January, 2010, 2:22pm

Chelsea tractor - but no x factor lol

"Yes I agree winter tyres do make sense, but do not kid yourselves. A two wheel drive car with winter tyres is no match for a 4x4 in six inches of snow. The two wheel drive car stops. I know, I've got one fitted with m+s tyres and 4x4 were in a different class. Perhaps Gordon can now put another tax on 4x4's , they could call it 'snow ability tax'.? "

Sorry, but as said above, a 4x4 with summer tyres on won't be going anywhere in 6 inches of snow except sideways into the car next to it! Hence the range rover in the ditch on the front page of the Sun, the land rover stuck on our road, and RAV4 up the road.
My Impreza, with winter tyres on - no problem - admittedly I needed to clear some of the snow to get onto the main roads, but I mainly got traction without an issue because of the tyres.

4x4 doesn't unfortunately prevent you from crashing when you realise you can't stop because your tyres are made from the wrong sort of compound for the weather and won't provide any grip.
If you watch videos online, you'll note that the difference stopping from 25mph on winter tyres vs summer tyres can be over 30 feet. That's the difference between hitting a car or person or not.

By Bugeye on 18 January, 2010, 4:32pm