Auto Express's ‘Stop the Service Secrets’ campaign

Peanut

The sentiment of this campaign is good, but in reality manufacturers will always try to hide faults - because to fix some of them would be astronomically expensive. Take for example the Teves Mk60 ESP fault that could affect most of the VAG cars build pre 2007/2008 and many BMW's that also share the common component. The cost to the customer can be in excess of £1500 and each manufacturer has a different stand on goodwill gestures / contributions - dealt with on a case-by-case basis.

By jonathanmayhew on 1 September, 2010, 12:09pm

hondahowler

vsa light has appeared on my '05 honda accord,48k fully serviced @ required intervals,will cost £1500-£1800 for required part ecu or modulator i believe .hondas in america have had a recall for this fault (reading on the internet) why not europe? in the town where i live there is an old rover dealer and he said they had the problem on the old 600 so make of that what you will totally disappointed with honda. probably will not buy another honda unless they contribute to repair

By deltic24 on 1 September, 2010, 12:12pm

Had same thought

After some personal bad experiences and warnings from friends about certain models, I had the same thought. I bought the domain name www.knownfaults.co.uk for this exact same purpose - a free to access site listing known faults. It is still in the embryonic stage but would welcome comments and your known faults to ir@kingmaker.co.uk

By IlMostro on 1 September, 2010, 1:06pm

Great idea

This is something I'd love to see.

By Oilburner on 1 September, 2010, 1:34pm

Can of worms

This all sounds go in theory however; if AE gets what they want will the out come be for the good?. I think a lot of manufacturers work on a 'fair Use' basis. If your rear axel breaks after just 4 years and cannot be connected to miss or over usage the manufacture often replaces it on a 'good will'. Having to publish various potential faults will have current owners banging on dealers door demanding repair work for something that isn't broken. Published information for potential customers could spell disasters for many manufactures including Jaguar who are having a good run with their products right now but could have sales severely damaged by having to publish technical issues.

Example how can you publish "driving infrequent distances may cause diesel particle to clogg up"

or "Warning light may come on for no reason"

"Lane departure light may stay on when in outside line"

"Car may break unexpectedly under various conditions whist adaptive cruise is engaged"


All of the above have happened on the new XF however; it must be stressed the car cleared itself of all problems on its own accord.

For a potential buyer does it make you want to buy the car or not. Particle filter issues are common through the whole of the auto industry. warning lights that come on and then going off again; also quite common. The car carries on working but to have this info and various other isolated issues published for maybe 1/1000 cars produced makes buyers think it will happen to their car too. When quite likely it won't.

I say no. Recall a car when it is necessary. let the manufacturers deal with their problems in the manner they seem fit.
And lastly in a review of a car. AutoExpress should stop prejudging vehicles and use reliability and residual values as a negative buying point on a brand new car that's only just been launched.

By W00DZ on 1 September, 2010, 1:40pm

Re: can of worms

So what? If most cars have a list of TSBs similar to the new XF, then it won't stand out will it?

If, on the other hand, the XF had an unusual number of problems, then why shouldn't the customer know about this?

Why all the cloak and dagger? It's certainly not in the customers best interests.

By Oilburner on 1 September, 2010, 2:38pm

There is no cloak and dagger but whether it in the customer's interest this information is in the customer's interest is a different story. Most people here see the picture as the customer is getting screwed. I see it as "Too much information is not good".

Don't worry I'm sure I am of a very small minority of people who rather not have such information published. another example. Is it really that bad that the aircon only works on the driver side of a convertible when the roof is down?

When my life resorts to moaning about such things I will have to conclude I no longer have any real problems in my life.

By W00DZ on 1 September, 2010, 6:14pm

recalls

Yoyr article today on service secrets struck a chord, as I had exactly this type of issue today.

At the weekend I slid the two front seats of my Golf mk 5 back whilst vacuuming underneath. Next day when driving the car for the first time since its clean, the airbag warning light came on. So I took it to the dealer who reset the dash warning light. The fault was over sensitive sensors under the seats that had been triggered - it was clear the dealer knew about this, as he had printed off paperwork about the fault ( it was called csi...or something like that. The work cost me £49...and if it happens again some further remedial work will be needed - the maechanic admitted they knew about this fault and had designed it out on later models). I asked the service receptionist if the work would be covered by warranty, but because no recall had been issued, I would have to pay out of my own pocket.

By mark5757 on 1 September, 2010, 9:33pm

Slow to recall

Manufacturers that put their customers lives at risk should be castigated.

I took on Mitsubishi in 2002.

Look up "Responsible manufacturer" on Google. Then ask yourself when you last saw the vehicle in question.

Anyone can do the same if the circustances demand

By Investeast on 1 September, 2010, 10:33pm

Audi A3 3.2

Audi UK still refuse to except there is a problem with stretching cam chains on the A3 3.2/ VW R32. They also will not except there is a misfire problem at 2k rpm despite Audi Germany issuing a software update to fix the problem. I was told backfiring and hesitation was " symptomatic of the engine"..
Eventually after writing to Audi UK i got them to install the German update and the problem was cured however a friend took his 3.2 in to the same dealership the following week and they denied that there was an update or a problem ! As for the cam chain ?? well i had to pay £4500 and Audi contributed about the same and all this at 45k miles with FASH. I know of quite a few owners in a similar position re: the cam chain.

By paddybarratt on 2 September, 2010, 7:29am

They should release details of faults. I never go to main dealers to get ripped off, I change parts myself and save about £300 labour every time !!

By andy007007 on 2 September, 2010, 8:02am

Yes this info should be made public.

I used to own a 1997 BMW 528i. I had to have the engine block replaced due to known issues with the linings being eaten away by the fuel. That cost a lot of money as it was at least a days labour to fit.

I also have been experiencing a number of problems with my 2005 Vectra 1.9 CDTi. Quite a fe of these faults are know by Vauxhall but are hidden from the average owner.

Car club forums on the internet are a good source for researching know faults on specific car models.

I can't see the manufacturers giving in to this. Just lookat what happened with Toyota.

By m4rky on 2 September, 2010, 8:39am

Until the British Government has the same attitude, as the US, to its people.Nothing will change.

By toycollector on 2 September, 2010, 10:59am

brik58

i live by a scrapyard that is full of fords.not all of them are damged,they just have known faults that are too expensive to repair.such as diesel mondeos with damaged flywheels,turbos etc.some of the cars are afew years old and in show room condition.but fords wont admit there is a problem,like the focus/volvo/freelander alternator fault

By brik2010 on 2 September, 2010, 11:10am

Fiat Multipla - Moriarty the Mundane

Hi, what a cracking idea. Lets sort out the problems/manufacturers and make everything transparent. On the Multipla forum (www.multiplaowners.co.uk) and no doubt loads of other cars we see all the same faults time and time again. Maf sensors, EGR valves (both of which are bypassed to cure) Spring recalls (and subsequent failures) Map sensors, steering geometry settings and loads of other things. My current pet hates are DPF filters and oil/servicing lights these are designed purely, in my opinion and no doubt others, to generate income for the Main dealer industry!

Count me in and make it so! (Sorry came over all Jon Luc Picard then....

Moriarty the Mundane...

By moriartywalton on 2 September, 2010, 4:47pm

I have an ongoing argument with Fiat. Both Pandas and Vauxhall Corsas are experiencing power steering failures just out of warranty. These cases are not isolated and may simply be a bad batch, as other Fiats I have owned have been fine. I am expected to accept £100 of Fiat vouchers against a £900 repair. At present I am seeking an unfit for purpose claim at the small claims court. My first letter was ignored, and an eventual reply after a recorded delivery communication suggested I was having my steering column replaced. We must do this dance where they try to limit their liability and I attempt to achieve a reasonable settlement.

By Pete531 on 2 September, 2010, 7:16pm

C-Max TDCI CVT

Brik58's post is very interesting. Many of us with broken-down C-Max TDCI CVTs have been trying for months to persuade Ford and its dealers to come clean about the problems with this model and Ford's refusal/inability to make transmission components available to independent repairers. Sites such as Honest John refer to failures reaching epidemic proportions, but Ford won't accept responsibility.

By rjp55 on 2 September, 2010, 7:19pm

honda crv 2.2 cdti 2008

there is an fault with the gearbox on the crv 2.2 cdti.when the car is cold the 1st and 2nd gears are very stiff and practically impossible to engage.i have taken my car back to the main dealer from where it was purchased and to be honest they have been as good as gold about it.they know all about it but honda technical are trying to find a fix but upto yet ,nothing.they did suggest that i have the 1st and 2nd syncromesh changed,which they did,but it made no difference at all.another fault is the noisy clutch pedal that drives you barmy with the constant clicking,resulting in a repacement pedal box and a modification.spoken to the technicians at the local dealer and they are frustrated that theres no fix as yet for the gearbox as they have to take the flak for it from the customers and they have to follow a strict repair process of repairs with the clicking clutch pedal.ie.grease first,then modify a bush,then change the pedal box.

By hondacrvman on 2 September, 2010, 8:01pm

Consumer surveys

I'd love to see something like this, but would question what differenc eit would make. If allegedy every consumer survey (jd power, tg etc) for the last 10 years has castigated LR/RR (with the disco & freelander in the bottom 30% this year) and yet they are still percieved as the prestige SUV brand, then what difference will this make? People can easily access this info now, but seem to choose to ignore it, because the "brand" values are more important.

By onlinewebideas on 3 September, 2010, 2:25pm

Use The Freedom of Information Act

The Freedom of Information Act can force the British Government and Police Forces to reveal their confidential records - so surely the same legislation could be used to force car manufacturers to reveal the problems which affect the cars which they have sold to us.
Allowing the car owners to foot expensive bills for repairs when there is a known weakness in a component of the car is downright dishonesty by the manufacturers.

By jamesmclaughlin on 3 September, 2010, 9:54pm

Renault are the worst

"It also revealed how independent garages are often forced to send customers to franchised dealers because they can’t access the vital technical information on service bulletins."

That's so obvious. Why wouldn't the manufacturers setup a system which their main dealer mechanics have the software to access? its a cash cow!

Renault are one of the worst for this. For example their Laguna range is a joke (as well as every French car (even though I am test driving a top Citroen D3 at the moment for a month but at least its not mine!)), as they keep upgrading software for the faults with the vehicle sensors (where you are signalled all the wheels have failures (which means in French terms "fallen off!") and some main dealers try to charge customers for the upgrade when their cars develop faults! Its like Microsoft charging you every time you receive a security patch update for Windows (stop laughing you Apple Mac users!). Disgrace.

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By zjone on 6 September, 2010, 11:25am

In the Interest of Full Disclosure

This is quite a surprise. Here in America, auto manufacturers are required to publish any safety and reliability issues as they come to light. In many cases, they voluntarily recall the vehicles because, while it can very expensive to fix the problem, it is much cheaper than paying damages in a lawsuit. Furthermore, they may NOT hide technical service bulletins to prevent independent shops from doing repairs. Franchised dealer service centers have access to proprietary technical information and diagnostic equipment that independents do not have (a selling point for the dealers), but the law does not allow the kind of secrecy that seems to plague the UK. For example, if a car is taken to a non-franchised mechanic for normal service, and at some point it is taken in to a dealer for a repair that is covered under warranty, the manufacturer cannot refuse to honor it so long as the owner can prove that the car was serviced according to manufacturer's specifications, which must be provided in the owner's manual. Dealer service is still more expensive than non-dealer, but at least consumers have more choices, and, consequently, pricing stays more competitive. Transparency and full disclosure. This is far more civilized.

By sshowers on 6 September, 2010, 6:24pm

VASS20

I am greatly surprised that AutoExpress has never taken up the cudgel on the issue of the Renault Clio spontaneous bonnet release that has been so widely discussed even on BBC's Watchdog.

Having campaigned consistently on renaultforums.co.uk about this particular issue, I have to concur with this present proposal for total transperancy where vehicle faults are concerned.

It is simply not acceptable for the Ministry of Transport (DVLA/VOSA) to keep pussyfooting around potential killer-issues and relying on Renault's own assessment when pressured by owners and other road users whose safety is consistently being jeopardised.

VOSA reported that Renault's engineers said they found nothing wrong with the Clio's bonnet locking mechanism. Well....! In the immortal words of one Christine Keeler " Well! They would, wouldn't they?"

By vassalloj on 7 September, 2010, 12:23am

Quote: In the immortal words of one Christine Keeler " Well! They would, wouldn't they?"

I can't remember Chris Keeler saying that, but I can remember Margaret Thatcher saying it in one of her famous speeches.
But you are right, it is unacceptable that our official bodies keep ignoring the problem, and they should enforce manufacturers to publish service bulletins, although I think official and government funded bodies will try to devolve responsibility and put the onus on the EU.
Again in just a few short years it won't matter as we will all be driving EU clones to a similar design, all cars will be built to, and governed by EU legislation, which will be quietly made law, by the faceless politicians who you don’t know and never voted for, and then implemented and enforced by the jobsworth lackeys in our own government.
For example when a car enters a 40mph area it will probably be made to automatically slow to 40mph, tyres and other parts like cam belts etc, will have sensors and will have to be changed when legislation says so, we already have exhaust recalculation and future cars will be further strangled by new devices, and exhaust gas will have to be cleaner than a cows fart, while taxes and fines will increase to swell the EU coffers, so the future doesn’t look bright for motorists, unless motorists who love freedom start to fight back and start now, by doing nothing you accept their changes

By Bobbybev on 7 September, 2010, 11:19am

Apologies Bobbybev; it was Mandy Rice-Davies on being told that Viscount Astor had denied knowing her. She actually said, "Well! He would say that, wouldn't he?"

As you say, the times they are achangin' and not necessarily for the better.

By vassalloj on 7 September, 2010, 6:43pm

Scenic Spontaneous Combustion

I totally agree with the transparency idea. It took the best part of 8 months, fighting tooth and nail to get Renault UK to answer up to the problem of Scenic I phase II door mirror switches catching fire. Only because I came out of the corner fighting and had some technical experience on the subject did they actually take my complaint very seriously. VOSA as previously mentioned were little to no help, insisting that the manufacturer be allowed to conduct their own investigation. That's like asking a burglar to conduct his own trial conversation going something like this "So Mr Smith on the night of 2nd September did you break and enter at No.21 Any Street"? "No M'lud I didn't" "OK case dismissed".

The breakthrough for me was when I translated my search for Renault Scenic fires into French and search on the internet again that I was shocked to find out that Renault France had known about this for at least two years before our car caught fire.

I am still being contacted through the www.renaultforums.co.uk website by owners of the same vehicle who's cars have gone up in flames. This appears to be due to the fact that their "Quality Campaign" has missed all of the right hand drive imports into the UK.

If the information had been posted up on a website that we could all go to then I think the industry would tidy it's act up and we would all be driving safer vehicles. I doubt this vision will ever become a reality though!

Good luck Auto-Express!

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By ashdgh on 10 September, 2010, 2:41pm

VW gOLF ESP LIGHT

I HAVE A 4YEAR OLD GOLFPLUS SE TDI 18400 miles
with the esp light on the dash board on all the time.
The VW DEALER says it will cost £1079.70 to fix,They said it was the abs control unit ,VW would not make a good will payment , because my none vw garage who did the annual sevice did not use genuine vw parts,what has an oil filter to do with the esp light ! How can i proceed with a claim. Ron.

By maxey on 12 September, 2010, 11:36am

VW GOLF ESP LIGHT

Hey Maxey; Escalate your complaint one rung at a time with VW customer services; you are bound to find someone with initiative sooner or later. Front desk response is always rehearsed speil so don't go on that. Some customer care person will respond positively if told that you will be taking your complaint to the Office of Fair Trading because some part of your car is not fit for purpose.

Considering that VW doesn't make its own oil filters or other bread & butter parts, I don't think the OFT will be put off by what VW told you.

By the way, I was about to buy a new Polo (low emissions one) but if this is the kind of treatment they give their customers, they can keep it.

By vassalloj on 14 September, 2010, 6:21pm

VW GOLF ESP LIGHT

Hey Maxey; Escalate your complaint one rung at a time with VW customer services; you are bound to find someone with initiative sooner or later. Front desk response is always rehearsed speil so don't go on that. Some customer care person will respond positively if told that you will be taking your complaint to the Office of Fair Trading because some part of your car is not fit for purpose.

Considering that VW doesn't make its own oil filters or other bread & butter parts, I don't think the OFT will be put off by what VW told you.

By the way, I was about to buy a new Polo (low emissions one) but if this is the kind of treatment they give their customers, they can keep it.

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By kinjack on 1 October, 2010, 4:48pm

VW ESP LIGHT

Hi- vassalloj, Got a result from V W as you say dont give up.
after a number of phone calls, with daft questions(.What kind of oil
was used) they agreed to pay a good will payment of £800 for the
ABS pump and part payment of the labour,which will be about
£260 + vat.
regards Ron.

By maxey on 8 November, 2010, 7:32pm

stop buying into the admans dreams

It's us the customers at fault. The marketing people spend a fortune convincing us that we must have more car for less money. It's rubbish. If we accepted 'less' car, the the quality could easily go up. I've never needed ABS or ESP to stop me from skidding into the back of another car. These cars are riddled with unnecessary electrical garbage. somehow we need to get the message to the manufacturers that we DON'T NEED all this c**p. Modern cars are hideously unreliable because they are over complicated but still built to the same relative price of a similar car in a similar size bracket twenty years ago. What on earth do you expect if you think you can get electric windows, heated mirrors, heated seats, electrically positioned seats, satnav, reversing sensors (!) headlights that point round corners, climate control, 8 speaker stereos, airbags, seatbelt tensioners and lord knows what else and still think you can get it all for 10grand. And then act surprised when it all packs up.
The ecological argument for so much emission control garbage is also nonsense. It makes no 'green' sense at all that my local scrappy is chock full of cars under ten years old 'cos they are economic write offs 'cos some sodding sensor has packed up that's buried deep in the engine. Have a look at a cross sectional diagram of a dual mass flywheel and ask...WTF? Why? Stop expecting 9 bazillion pounds feet of tourque from a 1800ccc diesel ....we didn't need them before we don't need them now and we SHOULD STOP BUYING ALL THIS RUBBISH.

By trampintransit on 6 January, 2011, 12:56pm

oh..and another thing......

Windscreen wipers that turn on automatically when it rains....get a grip!!!!! Don't complain when the 'Transparent atmosphere deflector high humidity symptom clearing device built in sensor fails at year five ( or month five in a French car - they really should be stopped from manufacturing cars by some kind of international common sense treaty ) and cause the ECU to go into limphome mode and require a 200quid reset at the dealer.

By trampintransit on 6 January, 2011, 1:19pm